No ill will is intened, however, on my part. Just pointing out why I cant follow or take to heart any of your Revelation sermons.
I want to be adamant about the fact that I still believe he loves the lord and is as christian as they come. His views of Revelation and Old Testament prophecy have no bearing on that whatsoever, and I enjoy his other sermons immensly.
God Bless!

I see the time from Christ Rising through right now as the “tribulation”, the 144,000 is a symbol describing the church, as well as the two witnesses being a symbol describing the church. It says right in the beginning that it was “signified’ to John by the angel.

So that tells me up front that if I see group of 144,000 of anybody, its a symbol, not an actual 144,000 of whatever it says. Same for the Two Witnesses. Its a symbol, and idea explaining something else.

This is why I cant enjoy his Revelation series and I’m not going to bother listening to his Daniel teaching either, since people with this Hal lindsey view of Revelation usually mis understand Daniel as well.
Still, I liked the other series I mentioned.

Yes, we do all deserve hell for the sin that we do. The fact that we all need to pay the penalty for our sin proves the concept of a just and loving God. However, the idea that only some of us get the chance to repent and be saved? That flies in the face of love and justice. I don’t see that we can read in our own ideas to the passages mentioning elect and predestination to come to that conclusion.

Once again I appreciate the dialog even though it has taken a turn toward sarcasm. I will address your last sentence.

I comprehend a loving and just God by taking scripture in it’s context. Please don’t forget we all deserve to go to hell, God manifests His love, grace, and mercy buy electing some and not all. We all have chosen to rebel against God and choose hell. The Father grants those He would call to be saved by His grace, through faith in His son Jesus Christ. We all are responsible for our sin. Just because God does not elect someone, does not negate their responsibility for their sin. They will receive their JUST reward.

Peter wrote that God wishes that we’d all repent. To me, that doesn’t sound like “some”. Of course, not all do repent. So, while God wishes for some things, it appears that sometimes it doesn’t happen. He gives us the choice to deny Him.

I’m aware of the verses pertaining to election, but I am also aware that God wishes all would repent and be saved. So, we have seemingly contradictory verses.

It is logical that since God calls us all to repent, and not all do, that He does in fact, give us a choice. What does “elect” mean in these verses? I don’t know. But I have no less reason to believe that you’re interpreting “elect” wrong than you have to believe that I’m reading “all” incorrectly.

Having said that, I have no idea how you can comprehend a just and loving God that would create and predestine people to live and go to hell w/no chance whatsoever of salvation.

If you say that Christ died for all (which the bible in it’s context does not teach) then you are saying the following: Would you then say that the substitutionary death Christ died on behalf of our sin did not save those who have died denying Christ. And are also you saying that the mercy and grace of salvation given by the God the Father did not accomplish His own will when someone dies without believing?

I would contend that Christ died for those whom the Father foreknew and had predesteined to be called and were justified according to His purpose.

Ephesian 1:4 says that God the Father chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. And in verse 5 – He predetermined us (those who would believe) for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ (meaning His atoning work) according to the purpose of His will.

Perhaps this teaching is outside the opinion or doctrine, or not in line with the teaching of your church (the Bible Dictionary definition of heresy), but it is not outside the doctrine of God’s word.

You will find reference to God’s predestination and foreknowledge of His people. Jesus references us as His sheep. He says that all whom the Father gave Him will not perish or fall away.

John 1:11-13 speaks on the rejection and acceptance of Christ.

‘He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.’ His own – the world; His own – the Jewish lineage; and those who received him – not by the will of man, but BY GOD.

Romans 8:5-8 shows the folly of thinking man, in the flesh, can select God on their own.

‘For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.’

So, while you may think you have chosen God, the Bible says otherwise. His chosen are drawn to Him through His use of the Holy Spirit. There is no way for a dead man to come to Christ on his own because he has no patience for hearing his need for Christ.

This Romans passage, by the way, is the only place in the Bible where the will of man is referenced in regards to salvation.

I pray you will read the article barrydean has linked for you.

I am not suggesting you are not a believer, I am however suggesting you may be mistaken on how/why you are one.

Thanks for stopping by. I am pleased to dialog with you about this. Which sermon are you referring to? If you are referring to Patrick Abendroth, he is the senior pastor of my local church. He is right on whenever he preaches about predestination because he preaches and teaches from scripture. I would have to totally disagree with your general statement that predestination is heresy. The bible teaches it in Romans 8, Romans 9:14-the end of the chapter, Ephesians 1 is all about predestination and election. I would like for you to read this document and listen to this sermon by John Piper about the subject and please re-think your attitude toward it. The link is below.

Foreknown, Predestined, Conformed to Christ